This isn't an angry rant about Steam, just listen (read) on.

[nareth]

EDIT: I may have not made the point of this post clear enough. All I'm asking is why can you not sell the game as a CD on your site, at $10+shipping+*whatever else it costs you to make it*?

All I want to say is that I by all means am willing to pay for this game, etc.
I support you guys, I think you did a great job with this game.

To start off, in bold,
I am not saying that people should not use Steam, it is a wonderful platform for certain people! Just not me.

But Steam is a terrible thing in my very own and twisted opinion, but for a reason other than that it lags or glitches, and so on and so forth.

Yes it works for distribution, yes it helps you expand your user base, yes I probably would have never heard of your game if my friend had not bought it and let me play it.

The only problem I have with Steam is the EULA.
And I have only one problem with it - the first-sale doctrine.
I no longer own the game I pay for, I no longer have the right to resell my used copy of the game!
Although this is the case for pretty much all digital downloads of software, but in most cases there is no centralized system to transfer it through. Steam most certainly has the technology to allow you to transfer games (you can transfer un-downloaded games), but you cannot transfer a "used" game. Of course you aren't technically violating the first-sale doctrine, but O.J. Simpson was also technically found not guilty in his criminal trial. (This is a hugely exaggerated metaphor, but it's just an example, come on you get the point anyway) I mean Valve has a very good reason for not allowing this, because digital games don't deteriorate with use, so they would eventually stop being able to sell games because the second hand market would be too big, and no one wants more competition.

But I, as the person I am, do not support closed systems like this one. They eliminate resale, and they aren't open to competition.
Thus, I don't support Valve, and this is probably the only real "moral"(so to say) value I really have.

I know the demands of one customer don't really matter, because hey, it's $10, you can find that much money on the street, but why can you not offer the game on your site to be shipped?

I mean I would gladly pay the extra price for whatever a blank CD costs and shipping (I'd even pay an extra $5 for manual labor or whatever else), and I know people who have trouble with Steam would not mind either.

Till then I guess I will have to hold off on playing this game,
best regards,
Dimitri

[blue_h3x]

So... you don't like Steam because you can't get second hand games?

Developers, who ever they are, deserve to be paid for their work, and a second hand game means no reward for their efforts. Also, if you 'sell' the CD, what stops you still playing the game? There are many ways round the CD check. Again, this means no reward for a developer.

[nareth]

No, I do not like Steam because it is a closed system that eliminates competition. (also for a bunch of other reasons, but they're minor and not the point of this thread)
The second hand market is a natural part of competition.
They are getting paid for their game, only one person is using the game at a time per copy. This is clearly specified in the first-sale doctrine.
I am not against it because I cannot buy the game second hand, but because it directly goes against the first-sale doctrine's principle, and I do not support closed systems such as Steam.



I don't want to discuss DRM in this thread, I didn't include it in my post because it's gonna derail the thread, but here's my answer to you: Any game can be pirated (save MMORPGS), and if someone would bypass DRM (such as a CD check) they might as well pirate the game, so that argument is null and void. If you want to discuss DRM, PM me, and I'll gladly argue with you


On that note I would like to return to my original question: Why can't you sell the game on your site as a CD (for an increased price of course to cover and difference in cost)

[Razaeria]

sup

http://www.amazon.co.uk/ASCARON-Entertainment-UK-Ltd-Audiosurf/dp/B001GIONUS/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=videogames&qid=1225557874&sr=8-1
(UK only though)

oh, CDs exist, but umm... you'll still need steam to activate it

[blue_h3x]

If you want to discuss DRM, PM me, and I'll gladly argue with you

No thank you, I have better things to do than troll.

On that note I would like to return to my original question: Why can't you sell the game on your site as a CD (for an increased price of course to cover and difference in cost)

Because Steam was chosen as the delivery mechanism.

[nareth]

Because Steam was chosen as the delivery mechanism.

So is it exclusive?
That's a shame I guess..

oh, CDs exist, but umm... you'll still need steam to activate it

Hahaha thanks.

[Melodia]

Developers, who ever they are, deserve to be paid for their work, and a second hand game means no reward for their efforts.

This is a myth that I find strange perpetuates so much.

If 10 people buy the game, 10 people have compensated the developer. 10 people have access to the game. If one person sells it to another (provided no copying, etc, which would technically be illegal), it's STILL 10 people who have access to it, with 10 people having payed for it. Nothing is lost.

The OP has a point, and it's the main reason I've only bought cheap stuff on Steam, as well as why I stopped buying digital music. I would love to be able to make back SOME of the money I spent of the has-a-deceptive-demo Portal, but I can't because I bought it digitally. Now it just sits in Steam's game list as 'uninstalled' forever....which is kinda silly.

[blue_h3x]

Developers, who ever they are, deserve to be paid for their work, and a second hand game means no reward for their efforts.

This is a myth that I find strange perpetuates so much.

If 10 people buy the game, 10 people have compensated the developer. 10 people have access to the game. If one person sells it to another (provided no copying, etc, which would technically be illegal), it's STILL 10 people who have access to it, with 10 people having payed for it. Nothing is lost.

The OP has a point, and it's the main reason I've only bought cheap stuff on Steam, as well as why I stopped buying digital music. I would love to be able to make back SOME of the money I spent of the has-a-deceptive-demo Portal, but I can't because I bought it digitally. Now it just sits in Steam's game list as 'uninstalled' forever....which is kinda silly.

Though 11 people could have bought that game, which was my point.

I've played portal maybe 6~7 times, and imo was worth it.

[Laserrobotics]

This may be a valid point for some games, but not for games like Audiosurf.  Once you've tried the demo, you know whether or not you like it.  You're either going to keep coming back to it until you stop playing computer games at all(at which point $10 shouldn't be important to you anymore), or or won't like it and you won't have bought it either.  If you bought this game just on recommendation, I pity you.

[Mincus]

All I'm asking is why can you not sell the game as a CD on your site, at $10+shipping+*whatever else it costs you to make it*?

Because Dylan doesn't want to.

/thread.
Seriously, that's all there is to it. No amount of whining will change this.


As to the second hand sales, I know what you mean. It's not something that effects me personally though as I never sell games on (yes, I have shelves of the buggers going back to the early 90s )
It's unsustainable for digital terms anyway. How would you manage it? The singular way I can think of it working is some sort of bidding system. Even then they'd have to use "Steam credit" otherwise they'd be constantly patching security holes from attacks by people finding ways to enable claims then sell them on. Far from ideal.

I'm not seeing how Steam eliminates competition. Other than having no second hand market they don't stop developers selling through other means, take a look at World of Goo, it's available stand-alone, on Steam, Wii and a number of other Steam-a-likes. Steam only promotes choice in this regard, that is the choice of the developer to distribute in a (relatively) secure format providing ease of use to both user and developer for distributing updates. It has its flaws but lacking competition isn't one of them.

Oh, just as a side note, it is possible to pirate MMOs if you know how, although "pirate" is a little strong as for many it just breaks the EULA, not the law.

[Melodia]

Though 11 people could have bought that game, which was my point.

Ah, but instead, the person without now can go buy another game with the money, or etc. So no, nothing is lost.

[blue_h3x]

I suppose you people don't ever go to the cinema or theatre or theme park, as you can't resell your ticket afterwards.

Buying a game is better value in some respects, as you can play it more than once, as opposed to the cinema where you are limited to just one viewing. If you have enjoyed playing the game, I don't see what your issue is. You spent your money and enjoyed the consequences of spending it.

[Melodia]

I suppose you people don't ever go to the cinema or theatre or theme park, as you can't resell your ticket afterwards.

Buying a game is better value in some respects, as you can play it more than once, as opposed to the cinema where you are limited to just one viewing. If you have enjoyed playing the game, I don't see what your issue is. You spent your money and enjoyed the consequences of spending it.

The difference is, at a movie theater or theme park, you're limited in your capacity to use what you buy as it were. You can only view a movie once, and you can only stay at a park for a day. You don't get any physical item to use.

And if you buy a game and DON'T enjoy it, being able to sell it and get at least SOME money back is at least good insurance to have.

(And personally, I don't go to movies).

[Sensei Le Roof]

And if you buy a game and DON'T enjoy it, being able to sell it and get at least SOME money back is at least good insurance to have.

That's what the demo is for. Try before you buy and all that.

[nareth]

Are you trying to say that Gamestop and other stores like that should not exist?
Are you saying we shouldn't have used book stores? Used CD stores?

Also about the argument that "well, 11 people could have bought the game"
I could have bought the game twice, and 12 people would have bought the game..

Resale is most definitely fair, as established by law. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-sale_doctrine
If you don't want to exhaust yourself physically by moving the mouse and clicking the link, it says:

"The first-sale doctrine is a limitation on copyright  that was recognized by the U.S. Supreme Court ... The doctrine allows the purchaser to transfer (i.e., sell or give away) a particular lawfully made copy of the copyrighted work without permission once it has been obtained ... as long as no additional copies are made."