Author Topic: Mono balance  (Read 9711 times)

Hammer

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Re: Mono balance
« Reply #90 on: April 05, 2010, 07:30:21 pm »
As already mentioned, song counts are post-update.

My .ash folder currently holds over 1000 ash files, and I lost the ones I had before I had to reinstall everything, lol. There are many people who have played more than 443 songs.

Also, pointman does just fine in casual. It's just that the puzzle mode doesn't completely dominate due to the chain business.
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lavacano201014

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Re: Mono balance
« Reply #91 on: April 06, 2010, 12:37:40 am »
Didn't kEn state somewhere that he wanted to be #1 on every song ever?

He's played a lot of songs, if he's actually trying to back that up.

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myoho

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Re: Mono balance
« Reply #92 on: April 10, 2010, 12:56:12 pm »
True enough, though it's something of a non-issue for most of the songs I've played.  Especially since, at last count, I'm the only one who's played 443 songs (either just in Casual or at all).
I hope you don't think that's a record, or even anything special... just saying.  The song counts are only since that update anyways.
Oh no, ideally that number would be 0 - getting a first place score on a board with no other players listed isn't much of an accomplishment (ergo why I keep track of which high scores I set were by default and which I had to actually beat somebody for). 

Looking at the folder where my .ash files are stored tells me I've apparently played 1,362 songs.
Current Casual Thrones held: 1,128

lewdjan

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Re: Mono balance
« Reply #93 on: April 10, 2010, 01:24:38 pm »
Nice to see a serious, courteous discussion about this topic.  I recall the same issue being brought up back when the game first came out, and it seems it hasn't quite been resolved to a lot of people's satisfaction.

To me, it seems obvious that Mono should just be separated and given its own scoreboard.  While there may be other possible ways to deal with the issue, this one seems the simplest and most resolute.  Everyone appears to be in agreement that Mono plays differently than the puzzler ships.  While many think Mono is underpowered, some think it is overpowered.  Separate scoreboards should satisfy both of these groups.  If they are so different, why bother keeping them together anyway?  I can't see why anyone would have a strong opposition to split scoreboards.

I play almost solely Ninja Mono.  While I can probably get stealth/clean finish on easier songs in one or two tries, the songs I prefer playing are a bit more challenging.  For example, I only recently managed to stealth a song I'd been playing intermittently for over a year now (it's listed as my most played song with ~130 plays).  You could say that I suck, but I'm the only one to have stealthed this song.  Personally, I don't mind terribly when a few Pusher or Eraser players have scores that I can't beat, because I know I'm not really competing against them, and take comfort in having the highest Mono score posted.  What does bother me is that on any popular song, all Mono scores are completely blocked off the scoreboard.

Now you could easily say to me "try a puzzler".  Two responses to this.  First, I actually did this once.  I surfed a song in Mono, got a max score, took the throne.  Not long afterwards, I was dethroned by the Eraser player I had taken it from.  Only a few thousand points ahead of me, I decided to try out Eraser.  After a few tries, I was able to take it back.  I ended up playing with Eraser a bit more on similar songs where my perfect Mono score had been bested, and did okay.  I'm throwing this out there to address all the "Mono is too easy" comments.  With little practice, I was able to beat perfect Mono scores with Eraser.  Secondly, I simply don't enjoy the puzzler ships as much.  I find that Mono allows me to focus on the song more, and just enjoy surfing it.  Puzzlers, as has been said, are more cerebral.  The play style is completely different.

IMO, the main issue with Mono is the score cap.  I suspect that the only reason I hold any thrones at all is that the songs just aren't popular enough to draw the attention of decent puzzler players.  Yet I think I have earned those titles, and feel I am a very strong Mono player.  However, I think that mediocre puzzler players could probably beat my scores in a lot of instances.  Again, we're sort of left with the problem of comparing apples to oranges.  How good at Mono should I be in order to compete with those who are excellent Pusher or Eraser players?  The sad fact is that even the world's best Mono player is going to get stomped by them due to the score cap.  I'm not sure balance is really feasible, however.  Separate scoreboards just seems like the simplest and best solution.

murlough23

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Re: Mono balance
« Reply #94 on: April 10, 2010, 01:52:22 pm »
Oh no, ideally that number would be 0 - getting a first place score on a board with no other players listed isn't much of an accomplishment (ergo why I keep track of which high scores I set were by default and which I had to actually beat somebody for).

Or you could just pull my classic mistake and play an untagged mp3. Yesterday I got the high score on "Unknown Artist - X&Y - 12 - Twisted Logic.mp3" because it was the only score.

On the other hand, it sure would be awesome to have the throne on "Unknown Artist - Unknown Title".

ManPigThing

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Re: Mono balance
« Reply #95 on: April 10, 2010, 02:02:18 pm »
Very admirable viewpoint lewdjan, but i'll enlighten you on the perspective of a mediocre puzzler(best skill ratings are 2.3k as DVE and 1.6k as eraser elite so "mediocre" seems a suitable fit) I can stealth a hard song with ninja mono, maybe not on the first try, and can usually top most mono players scores relatively easily. This is very little compaired to what scores i can pull off in 1 run with eraser and rightfully so. Scoring well with any puzzle character takes time, practice and ALOT more thought than any mono run.
My point is as someone who can get close to the best mono score possible on songs with some effort and replays, i feel my mediocre puzzler scores are alot more deserving of the points they get since a hell of alot more goes into them.

A seperate scoreboard for mono players would be nice, i play quite a bit of mono and would like to see it implemented. I also think it would also be nice if there were some added bonuses/penaltys implemented to the mono character, not necessaraly to push the roof on the score cap but to create more of a skill gap between new and advanced mono players.
My suggestions to add more skill to mono play but to keep the scores reasonable would be:
Remove the points you get for each block hit(leaving only match points)
Add a clear bonus for clear matches
Extend the chain time to allow more strategical chaining into high scoring parts of a song.

The clear bonus might sound silly to people who don't play mono frequently, but on occasion a block in a side lane could bring your points down or a poorly timed force clear could kill your clear bonus on a big match(ie. when you have 2 blocks very close to eachother and only room for 1 more where the second block is hit before the first gets added to the match and the blocks match off)
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myoho

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Re: Mono balance
« Reply #96 on: April 10, 2010, 02:58:32 pm »
Oh no, ideally that number would be 0 - getting a first place score on a board with no other players listed isn't much of an accomplishment (ergo why I keep track of which high scores I set were by default and which I had to actually beat somebody for).

Or you could just pull my classic mistake and play an untagged mp3. Yesterday I got the high score on "Unknown Artist - X&Y - 12 - Twisted Logic.mp3" because it was the only score.

On the other hand, it sure would be awesome to have the throne on "Unknown Artist - Unknown Title".
You joke, but I've actually seen that before in the little random champion highlights the game shows as you're sitting on a track prior to hitting play.  Gave me a good chuckle.
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murlough23

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Re: Mono balance
« Reply #97 on: April 10, 2010, 03:15:24 pm »
You joke, but I've actually seen that before in the little random champion highlights the game shows as you're sitting on a track prior to hitting play.  Gave me a good chuckle.

Sweet! All the more reason to mislabel my mp3s.

blue_h3x

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Re: Mono balance
« Reply #98 on: April 10, 2010, 04:26:00 pm »
You joke, but I've actually seen that before in the little random champion highlights the game shows as you're sitting on a track prior to hitting play.  Gave me a good chuckle.

Sweet! All the more reason to mislabel my mp3s.

and so starts the all out war for "Unknown Artist - Unknown Title".
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murlough23

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Re: Mono balance
« Reply #99 on: April 10, 2010, 08:36:49 pm »
and so starts the all out war for "Unknown Artist - Unknown Title".

Also known as "The search for the longest song in the world".

Ko-Tao

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Re: Mono balance
« Reply #100 on: April 10, 2010, 09:11:50 pm »
And again, a reminder that THE ALREADY EXISTING MONO-ONLY SCOREBOARDS can be accessed by clicking on any of the mono symbols at the bottom of the main online scoreboard (not the after-round scoreboard that lacks extended stats).

lewdjan

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Re: Mono balance
« Reply #101 on: April 10, 2010, 09:59:19 pm »
The clear bonus might sound silly to people who don't play mono frequently, but on occasion a block in a side lane could bring your points down or a poorly timed force clear could kill your clear bonus on a big match(ie. when you have 2 blocks very close to eachother and only room for 1 more where the second block is hit before the first gets added to the match and the blocks match off)

I'm not 100% sold on this specific idea, but I see what you're getting at.  I think we're in agreement about the problems with Mono (though our experiences seem to differ).  Mono should be able to compete, but at the same time, it has to be made more difficult in order to earn their place among the rest.  I've long stopped playing the songs in which it's simple to stealth because I don't find them fun or challenging anymore.  However, I can see how it would be frustrating for puzzlers to have to cross that hurdle if the point cap was suddenly raised to the point where Mono could compete.

I think a solution like you mentioned would add some skill without making it overly distracting from my point of view.  Something like that, which helps separate the skilled Mono players from the unskilled would be ideal.  Currently, as a Mono player, the only way to increasingly challenge myself is to seek out more difficult songs.  Again, I think this highlights the ways in which Mono just operates differently than the other ships.  While it would be great to change the game so that Mono maintains its simplistic flavor and allows for increasing challenges within a single song, I'm just not sure that it's as practical or convenient a solution as simply creating separate Mono scoreboards.

And again, a reminder that THE ALREADY EXISTING MONO-ONLY SCOREBOARDS can be accessed by clicking on any of the mono symbols at the bottom of the main online scoreboard (not the after-round scoreboard that lacks extended stats).

If you read through this thread, you'll see that people have mentioned this already, and you can also find the reasons given for why the current setup doesn't provide a satisfactory solution.

Ko-Tao

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Re: Mono balance
« Reply #102 on: April 11, 2010, 01:02:45 am »
I note those arguements, and they have a solid point; however, it also seems as though many players dont realize the mono score filter exists at all, and it never hurts to mention it yet again.

murlough23

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Re: Mono balance
« Reply #103 on: April 11, 2010, 04:12:48 am »
I note those arguements, and they have a solid point; however, it also seems as though many players dont realize the mono score filter exists at all, and it never hurts to mention it yet again.

I certainly didn't. Thanks for pointing it out.

blue_h3x

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Re: Mono balance
« Reply #104 on: April 11, 2010, 12:41:37 pm »
I love the mystery of this Easter egg. I suggested to leave it hidden, and damn does it cause hilarity XD
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