Mono balance

[blue_h3x]

Indeed it can be harder, reflex wise, though puzzle players require more than just reflexes.

That's what makes me a puzzle player - my reflexes aren't as strong, but I have fairly good intuition when it comes into puzzles and how things will cascade after the first match in a complicated grid sets off a series of them. (When blocks aren't flying at me at 90 mph, anyway.)

Puzzle characters require less speed than mono, just more logic skills.

Though leaving the mono-puzzler difference alone

Which was the original point of this thread. Oops.

Hijack'd

yes playing with different characters is fun, though the basic mechanics of the characters are close enough that they should be comparable on a points scale.

Was that the intent of the designer? Or just our own personal sense of the way things oughta be? (That doesn't invalidate the question; I'm just curious.)

I would also like to know the answer, if the overloads of Audiosurf wish to answer

Why have I lost the ability to mouse over a score and see details? Used to be able to do that. Am I using the wrong web browser? (I wanted to see the highest point cluster and so forth.)

Still works for me, in FF and IE, did you disable something?

Though also I'd like to point out, there is no way I can beat that Vegas score on Pro. I would love to see someone beat it, if anyone does try, please video it. The fact that the Vegas is pretty much double the Eraser/Pusher score is quite a gap.

Yeah, something still needs to be done about that. Either the multipliers should go similarly high for everyone, or Vegas should lose its chain when it shuffles.

That might actually work, don't think it's been suggested before.

It's more of a case that a cricket bat or a tennis racket wouldn't be good at golf, than the minor differences in gold clubs.

I don't think the difference between a driver and a putter is so minor. Regardless, it's not a perfect analogy, because you need both to complete a single hole, so it's not like we can look at golf scores for an entire round of 18 holes played with only a driver vs. with only a putter. (Disclosure: I don't actually play golf, so this is second-hand knowledge.)

They all have the same general appearance, handling and affordance. Where as bat/clubs/rackets from other sports don't. They all hit a ball essentially, like all characters collect blocks, but they require different skills. The best player at sports isn't found by sticking them all on the same field.

Perhaps. The problem with that analogy is that we can't objectively compare the skill of a cricket player to that of a tennis player, as they never compete directly with each other using their respective implements as part of the same game. But all analogies break down eventually, I guess.

I suck when it comes to knowing what I'm talking about with sports, so maybe the analogy to different characters in another video game works better. One's stronger and can bash enemies more easily, one's quicker and can jump higher, one's less vulnerable to damage, etc. Depending on what a level requires, they'll excel at different rates even for a player equally proficient with all of them.

My point was, no matter the golf club, hold it up to someone and they'll tell it was a golf club, even the none golfers.

In the roundabout jumbled stuff above I'm trying to say, skill in the individual character should come top.

I think an expert Pusher player is almost always going to beat an intermediate Eraser player, even in cases where the song is better suited to Eraser. Your scores for both came pretty close, especially for Pro. Presuming you're equally proficient with both (and how does one even measure this when Eraser is easier to learn?), I'd surmise you could come up with songs where you do better with Pusher.

I'd say I was a better Pusher player.

[murlough23]

Still works for me, in FF and IE, did you disable something?

I don't think so; I do web design for a living so you'd think I'd have everything enabled! But I'll double check. (I'm using FF.)

Edit: Just checked the JavaScript console. It's definitely a JavaScript error. Interestingly, when I do a search for the same song and access it via http://audio-surf.com/song.php?t=popular#703945, it works just fine. I should probably report this.

Hmmm, the Vegas guy kept his longest chain going for nearly 3 minutes. That might have something to do with it. His largest point cluster was over 70k, so I'd surmise he fired a red paint near the end of that long chain. Pusher and Eraser obviously cannot hang on to powerups, and Pointman would be absolutely useless at what I'm guessing is a rather frenetic song.

That might actually work, don't think it's been suggested before.

Equalizing the multipliers has been suggested before, though people seemed to mostly want Vegas's multiplier decreased to a max of x4. I think going the other way would avoid the problem of either having to leave behind unbeatable Vegas scores, or having to figure out a way to adjust those old scores, which is a HUGE can of worms. People would have to re-compete for the higher Pro scores now possible with all characters (except poor Mono!), but it would re-invigorate the game.

But I just thought of the chain thing recently. I didn't really appreciate the chain bonus until I started noticing that a lot of my good Vegas scores were less dependent on luck with multipliers and more dependent on painting full fields with red or yellow and doing it after a significant chain had been built up, at 10,000+ a pop. And I realized I was often losing my chain by shuffling, because I would intentionally dodge bricks while holding down the mouse button (or just duck into the shoulder), to avoid running the risk of hitting a brick just as soon as the rearranged bricks resulted in that column being full. It made me think - you know, if you're going to try your luck and rearrange the board, it shouldn't behave as if you still have a chain of consecutive matches going in the first place. (That said, my better Vegas runs tend to be the ones in which I don't have to continuously shuffle anyway.)

My point was, no matter the golf club, hold it up to someone and they'll tell it was a golf club, even the none golfers.

Sure, but the non-golfers aren't gonna realize that the differences between clubs are significant enough to be a hindrance if you use the wrong one at the wrong time. We're talking about golfers who have used the clubs extensively and know that they (presumably) can't force a solid, long, and reasonably precise drive with a putter. Similarly, it doesn't make a difference whether an Audiosurf noob thinks the differences between characters aren't all that significant - I'd sooner trust the opinion of someone who's played with them all a lot. (Which is why, though I might ask annoying questions, I ultimately have to trust your experience with Pusher vs. Eraser.)

I'd say I was a better Pusher player.

How do you gauge this, if not by score? Do you feel that your good Eraser runs (the ones that beat your Pusher runs on the same song) are more prone to luck, or just doing the same thing by rote throughout the song without having to think it through as deeply or react as quickly as you would with Pusher?

Having said all of this, I do think it's fair to expect that since Eraser can recover from mistakes more easily by erasing non-matching blocks, it probably shouldn't get as much of a reward for a clear board.

[blue_h3x]

Still works for me, in FF and IE, did you disable something?

I don't think so; I do web design for a living so you'd think I'd have everything enabled! But I'll double check. (I'm using FF.)

Edit: Just checked the JavaScript console. It's definitely a JavaScript error. Interestingly, when I do a search for the same song and access it via http://audio-surf.com/song.php?t=popular#703945, it works just fine. I should probably report this.

Same, though I disable things on purpose

That might actually work, don't think it's been suggested before.

Equalizing the multipliers has been suggested before, though people seemed to mostly want Vegas's multiplier decreased to a max of x4. I think going the other way would avoid the problem of either having to leave behind unbeatable Vegas scores, or having to figure out a way to adjust those old scores, which is a HUGE can of worms. People would have to re-compete for the higher Pro scores now possible with all characters (except poor Mono!), but it would re-invigorate the game.

But I just thought of the chain thing recently. I didn't really appreciate the chain bonus until I started noticing that a lot of my good Vegas scores were less dependent on luck with multipliers and more dependent on painting full fields with red or yellow and doing it after a significant chain had been built up, at 10,000+ a pop. And I realized I was often losing my chain by shuffling, because I would intentionally dodge bricks while holding down the mouse button (or just duck into the shoulder), to avoid running the risk of hitting a brick just as soon as the rearranged bricks resulted in that column being full. It made me think - you know, if you're going to try your luck and rearrange the board, it shouldn't behave as if you still have a chain of consecutive matches going in the first place. (That said, my better Vegas runs tend to be the ones in which I don't have to continuously shuffle anyway.)

I know the power ups have been talked about, I meant chain dropping for a shuffle was a good idea.

Sure, but the non-golfers aren't gonna realize that the differences between clubs are significant enough to be a hindrance if you use the wrong one at the wrong time. We're talking about golfers who have used the clubs extensively and know that they (presumably) can't force a solid, long, and reasonably precise drive with a putter. Similarly, it doesn't make a difference whether an Audiosurf noob thinks the differences between characters aren't all that significant - I'd sooner trust the opinion of someone who's played with them all a lot. (Which is why, though I might ask annoying questions, I ultimately have to trust your experience with Pusher vs. Eraser.)

Forget the golf

The main issue is n00bs tend to stick to mono as the others are pretty complex to play, and those elite who have been playing since the dawn of time (it feels like it) have built up pretty in-depth strategies which take some beating. Take a look at Lu Tze's videos.

I'd say I was a better Pusher player.

How do you gauge this, if not by score? Do you feel that your good Eraser runs (the ones that beat your Pusher runs on the same song) are more prone to luck, or just doing the same thing by rote throughout the song without having to think it through as deeply or react as quickly as you would with Pusher?

Having said all of this, I do think it's fair to expect that since Eraser can recover from mistakes more easily by erasing non-matching blocks, it probably shouldn't get as much of a reward for a clear board.

Gut instinct. I prefer Pusher and I feel I play better. Also the ability to erase that single purple is useful instead of having to collect two more.

[Uupis]

... I can see what you mean by instead of complaining try the others out, but I stand by saying that all characters should have an equal potential, and it is in fact a challenge of skill (of your chosen character) for the throne instead of hot-swapping characters as suits. ...

Nicely put.

[Ko-Tao]

Eraser is annoying.

Deja vu....

I suppose. Been absent from AS so I had forgotten what it's like. Don't mine me though, I am just mumbling something to myself.

It was just the rage against certain characters being more/less powerful than others.

the current 18 minute radio song... I'm the only one to stealth it yet.

B0nk!~

B0nk yourself, YOU cheated Just wait, once I get the stealth at stuff like Claustrophobia - The State or Last Prophecy, my score will be kicking your ass because my raw is almost always the highest mono raw

How'd he cheat?

Well if he wants to challenge me in mono, he should take mono, not pointman on a everybodymono, it's not quite the same ^^ therefore his score which is barely above mine is not really outstanding, thinking about how much potential he had

Hehe, the b0nk~ was just at your comment of being the only player to stealth it- i stealthed it shorty after seeing the comment (with pusher btw, not pointman). As for the potential, pusher may get a 100% clear bonus on every match but it cant hold chain + get stealth with that tag and the tiny match timer means far more dropped chains than mono (hence my score being only a 100-200k or so above yours).

Pointman would have had a much better total score with stealth but after 2 runs with 1 grey around the 15 min mark, i decided to be content with the pusher run. DVE likely had the best stealth score potential there but its lack of a precise/responsive control scheme makes it too rage inducing to use.

Also, my stealth run of The State got beaten recently, so im playing it again off and on to retake the throne... ill make sure to record it this time round too, and you can have my .ash if you like.

[lament]

hey, you ever post up that lu tze stealth you did ko-tao? jw

[Ko-Tao]

Heh, still sitting in raw avi format. Id like to have a few other stealth runs recorded so i can compress and upload them all at once... which will hopefully be sooner than later!

[chimaeraUndying]

I'm thinking that to make Mono characters more competitive they should:

• Have no upper limit or a really raised limit on the maximum points-per-block.
• Have a more forgiving chain timer or a higher chain multiplier.

[blue_h3x]

I'm thinking that to make Mono characters more competitive they should:

• Have no upper limit or a really raised limit on the maximum points-per-block.
• Have a more forgiving chain timer or a higher chain multiplier.

That wouldn't make Mono competitive, just massively over powered.

[chimaeraUndying]

Okay... Good point. How about:

• A higher colored-to-grey block ratio (instead of the "friendlier" Chain Bonus)
• Maybe Storm and Multiplier powerups (Storm would be composed of the Mono colored blocks, Multiplier would be 1-4x)

I see a lot of people pushing for separate scoreboards for Mono characters, but I think that it takes a little bit of the competition out of AudioSurf.

[ManPigThing]

How do you balance mono? Easy; remove it's stealth bonus.

Mono is allready op but it's that way so people who are new to the game have a shot at getting on the global scoreboard on their favourite song even if they suck.
This is coming from someone who was not long ago a mono-only player

You want more power-ups? Play a puzzle character, the transition wont take to long to come accustomed to.
Vegas is an easy introduction since you can shuffle if you get into trouble, eraser being next in the list.

Also there is a seperate mono scoreboard for each song if you click "online stats" and click the class icons at the bottom of the leaderboard.

[blue_h3x]

Mono with power ups = bad idea

That will just make mono score more, which will make it more overpowered. The 30% stealth bonus is already the highest in the game. For mono to be in line with puzzlers, it will need a higher skill level to attain the same score level, which will defeat the point of mono, ergo leave things alone,

[fink]

Ko-Tao, Why are you playing The State? why...can't you just let me have this one thing? anyone who looks at the scores knows you ran it before the update and I ran it after, I missed 10% of the blocks for christ sakes


Of course I'm kidding, I'd like to see the video but listen if you never get around to stealthing it again that is also just dandy

[chimaeraUndying]

No idea what the guy above me is talking about but...

I see what blue_h3x is saying, and I agree: Mono requires less mental skill and more motor skill to play than other characters (except maybe Pointman Elite and DV if you're alone), but I think that if the Stealth bonus was nerfed to maybe 25% it would be better.

[blue_h3x]

No idea what the guy above me is talking about but...

I see what blue_h3x is saying, and I agree: Mono requires less mental skill and more motor skill to play than other characters (except maybe Pointman Elite and DV if you're alone), but I think that if the Stealth bonus was nerfed to maybe 25% it would be better.

It wouldn't achieve anything, mono isn't that competitive right now anyway (except casual), and reducing the stealth bonus would just make it more less-competitive.

DV is slightly overpowered at the moment (huge match bonus for matches over the line), though that's a different topic.