Author Topic: Mono balance  (Read 8982 times)

Ko-Tao

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Re: Mono balance
« Reply #45 on: March 21, 2010, 06:24:08 pm »
My only dislike as far as mono vs puzzle currently goes is that mono scores so much lower that on many tracks you can have a pretty much epileptic dve run, get lucky on not topping out and beat the highest available mono score by around 50%.

But again, im not in favor of raising monos scoring unless it comes with an associated increase in the execution required.

the current 18 minute radio song... I'm the only one to stealth it yet.

B0nk!~

Uupis

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Re: Mono balance
« Reply #46 on: March 22, 2010, 07:22:02 am »
I vote for seperate scoreboards.

Eraser is annoying.

blue_h3x

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Re: Mono balance
« Reply #47 on: March 22, 2010, 07:36:13 am »
Austria is just like Yorkshire, but they have bigger hills.... oh and they have real snow too

murlough23

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Re: Mono balance
« Reply #48 on: March 22, 2010, 10:15:29 am »
I vote for seperate scoreboards.

Eraser is annoying.

Every character that can beat me is annoying!

Saeda88

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Re: Mono balance
« Reply #49 on: March 23, 2010, 08:23:13 am »
the current 18 minute radio song... I'm the only one to stealth it yet.

B0nk!~

B0nk yourself, YOU cheated ;) Just wait, once I get the stealth at stuff like Claustrophobia - The State or Last Prophecy, my score will be kicking your ass ;) because my raw is almost always the highest mono raw
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Uupis

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Re: Mono balance
« Reply #50 on: March 23, 2010, 10:26:13 am »
Eraser is annoying.

Deja vu....

I suppose. Been absent from AS so I had forgotten what it's like. Don't mine me though, I am just mumbling something to myself. :D

blue_h3x

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Re: Mono balance
« Reply #51 on: March 23, 2010, 10:46:40 am »
Eraser is annoying.

Deja vu....

I suppose. Been absent from AS so I had forgotten what it's like. Don't mine me though, I am just mumbling something to myself. :D

It was just the rage against certain characters being more/less powerful than others.

the current 18 minute radio song... I'm the only one to stealth it yet.

B0nk!~

B0nk yourself, YOU cheated ;) Just wait, once I get the stealth at stuff like Claustrophobia - The State or Last Prophecy, my score will be kicking your ass ;) because my raw is almost always the highest mono raw

How'd he cheat?
Austria is just like Yorkshire, but they have bigger hills.... oh and they have real snow too

Saeda88

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Re: Mono balance
« Reply #52 on: March 23, 2010, 02:37:42 pm »
Eraser is annoying.

Deja vu....

I suppose. Been absent from AS so I had forgotten what it's like. Don't mine me though, I am just mumbling something to myself. :D

It was just the rage against certain characters being more/less powerful than others.

the current 18 minute radio song... I'm the only one to stealth it yet.

B0nk!~

B0nk yourself, YOU cheated ;) Just wait, once I get the stealth at stuff like Claustrophobia - The State or Last Prophecy, my score will be kicking your ass ;) because my raw is almost always the highest mono raw

How'd he cheat?

Well if he wants to challenge me in mono, he should take mono, not pointman on a everybodymono, it's not quite the same ^^ therefore his score which is barely above mine is not really outstanding, thinking about how much potential he had
Visit my Youtube Channel with lots of Audiosurf Videos (almost daily updates)
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murlough23

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Re: Mono balance
« Reply #53 on: March 23, 2010, 02:45:19 pm »
It was just the rage against certain characters being more/less powerful than others.

I was just thinking about this - it's easy to say "Not fair!" when another character consistently beats you at a particular song, but I don't think the characters were designed to all be good at the same types of songs. I know Pointman's not the greatest in heavy traffic (not enough time to pick up and strategically place blocks without crashing into other, unwanted blocks). And Eraser seems a bit useless on slow songs (I don't make as many mistakes and I can't really chain up much of anything, so I can't get a lot of value from deleting a color and letting a bunch of other matches fall into place). I have less experience with Pusher and DV, so I can only guess on those. My main assumption is, rather than trying to balance it so that any character could crown any song, part of the strategy is trying to figure out which character best suits the song. (Issues with Vegas notwithstanding - though I still see excellent Pointman/Pusher scores from time to time that even an incredibly lucky Vegas run seems hard pressed to beat. That's an issue for another thread)

That said, Mono still has a pretty severe handicap over the others, in terms of scoring. Maybe that's because it's just plain easier to play (in terms of understanding the objectives and figuring out what needs to be done - actually executing it is a different story), but still, I can't think of any possible track layouts where Mono has a likely advantage over other players.

blue_h3x

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Re: Mono balance
« Reply #54 on: March 23, 2010, 02:58:01 pm »
It was just the rage against certain characters being more/less powerful than others.

I was just thinking about this - it's easy to say "Not fair!" when another character consistently beats you at a particular song, but I don't think the characters were designed to all be good at the same types of songs. I know Pointman's not the greatest in heavy traffic (not enough time to pick up and strategically place blocks without crashing into other, unwanted blocks). And Eraser seems a bit useless on slow songs (I don't make as many mistakes and I can't really chain up much of anything, so I can't get a lot of value from deleting a color and letting a bunch of other matches fall into place). I have less experience with Pusher and DV, so I can only guess on those. My main assumption is, rather than trying to balance it so that any character could crown any song, part of the strategy is trying to figure out which character best suits the song. (Issues with Vegas notwithstanding - though I still see excellent Pointman/Pusher scores from time to time that even an incredibly lucky Vegas run seems hard pressed to beat. That's an issue for another thread)

That said, Mono still has a pretty severe handicap over the others, in terms of scoring. Maybe that's because it's just plain easier to play (in terms of understanding the objectives and figuring out what needs to be done - actually executing it is a different story), but still, I can't think of any possible track layouts where Mono has a likely advantage over other players.

Pretty much got it in one there.

I did complain about Eraser, though since I have learnt Eraser and play that with a combination of Pusher. I can see the strengths of each. Though Vegas is still OP, but since leaving Pro for Elite, it's bothered me less, except for the occasional dethrone email on pro.

I can see what you mean by instead of complaining try the others out, but I stand by saying that all characters should have an equal potential, and it is in fact a challenge of skill (of your chosen character) for the throne instead of hot-swapping characters as suits. If as you say you should change characters based on the song, then the boards will be dominated by one character alone and if you don't play that character you have no chance. Where as I would say the throne holder should be the player with the highest skill of their character.
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murlough23

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Re: Mono balance
« Reply #55 on: March 23, 2010, 03:36:08 pm »
Pretty much got it in one there.

Which is funny, because for me Mono is actually harder - more pure speed and hand-eye coordination, and less planning ahead. Not to imply that Mono players are less cerebral - I'm just aware of the upper bound on my response time. That, and it's extremely dissatisfying to me to hit one gray and be screwed out of the bonus for the rest of the song. (Not knocking the way the game was made - I just choose other modes where, unless it's really close to the end of a song, I can generally recover from any mistakes made.)

I did complain about Eraser, though since I have learnt Eraser and play that with a combination of Pusher. I can see the strengths of each.

It's always annoying to get dethroned, regardless of the character. I guess what I'm asking here is, are you annoyed because it seems easier for Eraser to beat your Pusher scores? If you're good with both, why not just do a run with Eraser and show 'em who's boss? Does the annoyance stem from the fact that it seems like this is just an "Eraser song", and Pusher can't seriously compete?

Though Vegas is still OP, but since leaving Pro for Elite, it's bothered me less, except for the occasional dethrone email on pro.

I wondered at first why there wasn't a Vegas Elite, because that would be fun to play, but it would obviously be unfair to the other Elite characters. But, as noted above, I would still surmise that a lot of those Vegas scores (perhaps not all) are beatable by really good Pusher/Pointman/Eraser players, depending on the song. I have a few slower songs that I've played to death with Vegas and still cannot beat the Pointman guy at the top (not like I'm the best Vegas player out there, but still - fewer blocks seems to mean lower occurence of freakishly good bonuses).

I can see what you mean by instead of complaining try the others out

I don't want to take away anyone's right to complain. Complaining is fun! I was just expressing something that I was just figuring out for myself for the first time - that maybe some songs are better built for certain characters.

but I stand by saying that all characters should have an equal potential

Overall, yes. But I think it would be extremely hard to equalize them at all levels of track speed and traffic. I think this is analogous to other games where you have your pick of characters with different strengths/weaknesses, and you can get through each level with any of them, but only certain characters can really excel at specific levels, and part of the skill is matching the character to the level. (Maybe if you're really good, you can brute force a really good score or outcome with a character ill-matched to the level, but that would take a lot more effort. It would also get you more bragging rights, I guess.)

and it is in fact a challenge of skill (of your chosen character) for the throne instead of hot-swapping characters as suits.

I think it's an incentive to learn the various characters and use them as tools. Keeps the game fresher over time. It's not like a really good score that you can't beat with Pusher is gonna be a piece of cake with Eraser if you don't know Eraser that well.

Alternatively, you're absolutely free to keep going with the one character you love - just realize that there are selected songs that you'll be hard-pressed to get the top scores on. (Which may be more or less frustrating depending on the amount of variance in the songs you choose to play. Since dabbling with Pointman Elite a little more instead of my usual Vegas, I've learned to appreciate the mid-tempo material more than the fast-and-furious stuff that generally creates a fun, frenzied run for Vegas. Some of those same songs are the ones where I got my Vegas scores demolished by Pointman Pro players. I could keep playing Vegas 50 times on those and hope for the jackpot - which honestly gets tedious even though it is a possible way of beating it by brute force rather than true skill - or I could get better at Pointman and do it the way that other guy did it.)

If as you say you should change characters based on the song, then the boards will be dominated by one character alone and if you don't play that character you have no chance.

I wouldn't say no chance. I would say your chance is much smaller. But to equalize it, there are other songs where your preferred character is king. And then some in the middle where it's a bit of potpourri - just about any character besides Mono has a decent shot at the top (notwithstanding that annoying Vegas person who got 7x21 Red three times).

But I'm speaking in hypotheticals here - maybe we should take a look at the boards for some popular songs that are intensely fast and dense, some that are slower and more sparse, and some that are in-between, and see who typically owns the Elite scoreboards on those. My hunch is that Pointman won't be at the top of a lot of the high-traffic songs, and Eraser won't do so hot on a lot of the slower songs. (But this data could also be skewed based on which players are used most often.)

Where as I would say the throne holder should be the player with the highest skill of their character.

But that's like saying I should be able to hit the farthest/most precisely on the golf course with only one club, regardless of the lie. That putter isn't gonna do crap for me at the tee, and trying to drive my way out of a sand trap probably isn't going to work terribly well, either.

Passerby

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Re: Mono balance
« Reply #56 on: March 23, 2010, 03:52:53 pm »

Which is funny, because for me Mono is actually harder - more pure speed and hand-eye coordination, and less planning ahead. Not to imply that Mono players are less cerebral - I'm just aware of the upper bound on my response time. That, and it's extremely dissatisfying to me to hit one gray and be screwed out of the bonus for the rest of the song. (Not knocking the way the game was made - I just choose other modes where, unless it's really close to the end of a song, I can generally recover from any mistakes made.)


no the same thing happens with top level puzzlers, too really compitive puzzler losing chain is just as bad as not getting stealth.

murlough23

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Re: Mono balance
« Reply #57 on: March 23, 2010, 03:54:27 pm »
no the same thing happens with top level puzzlers, too really compitive puzzler losing chain is just as bad as not getting stealth.

Ah. I just haven't discovered this for myself yet because I'm not good enough to keep the chain going for an entire song in the first place. I don't know; I almost don't want to get so good at something that I kick myself over every little imperfection.

blue_h3x

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Re: Mono balance
« Reply #58 on: March 23, 2010, 04:07:09 pm »
Which is funny, because for me Mono is actually harder - more pure speed and hand-eye coordination, and less planning ahead.

Indeed it can be harder, reflex wise, though puzzle players require more than just reflexes. I used to be mono only, though it got boring. Which moves on to:

I think it's an incentive to learn the various characters and use them as tools. Keeps the game fresher over time.

Though leaving the mono-puzzler difference alone, yes playing with different characters is fun, though the basic mechanics of the characters are close enough that they should be comparable on a points scale.

I guess what I'm asking here is, are you annoyed because it seems easier for Eraser to beat your Pusher scores?
I would still surmise that a lot of those Vegas scores (perhaps not all) are beatable by really good Pusher/Pointman/Eraser players,

http://www.audio-surf.com/song.php?sid=703945&st=1

Pusher and Eraser behave pretty similar in set traffic, though Eraser has the edge. I've played the above song with both to show the subtle differences. Though also I'd like to point out, there is no way I can beat that Vegas score on Pro. I would love to see someone beat it, if anyone does try, please video it. The fact that the Vegas is pretty much double the Eraser/Pusher score is quite a gap.

Where as I would say the throne holder should be the player with the highest skill of their character.

But that's like saying I should be able to hit the farthest/most precisely on the golf course with only one club, regardless of the lie. That putter isn't gonna do crap for me at the tee, and trying to drive my way out of a sand trap probably isn't going to work terribly well, either.

It's more of a case that a cricket bat or a tennis racket wouldn't be good at golf, than the minor differences in gold clubs. They all have the same general appearance, handling and affordance. Where as bat/clubs/rackets from other sports don't. They all hit a ball essentially, like all characters collect blocks, but they require different skills. The best player at sports isn't found by sticking them all on the same field.
In the roundabout jumbled stuff above I'm trying to say, skill in the individual character should come top.

EDIT
no the same thing happens with top level puzzlers, too really compitive puzzler losing chain is just as bad as not getting stealth.

Ah. I just haven't discovered this for myself yet because I'm not good enough to keep the chain going for an entire song in the first place. I don't know; I almost don't want to get so good at something that I kick myself over every little imperfection.

With chain bonus reaching over 200% dropping the chain has a greater effect on your score compared to stealth's 30% bonus
« Last Edit: March 23, 2010, 04:18:02 pm by blue_h3x »
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murlough23

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Re: Mono balance
« Reply #59 on: March 23, 2010, 04:27:41 pm »
Indeed it can be harder, reflex wise, though puzzle players require more than just reflexes.

That's what makes me a puzzle player - my reflexes aren't as strong, but I have fairly good intuition when it comes into puzzles and how things will cascade after the first match in a complicated grid sets off a series of them. (When blocks aren't flying at me at 90 mph, anyway.)

Though leaving the mono-puzzler difference alone

Which was the original point of this thread. Oops.

yes playing with different characters is fun, though the basic mechanics of the characters are close enough that they should be comparable on a points scale.

Was that the intent of the designer? Or just our own personal sense of the way things oughta be? (That doesn't invalidate the question; I'm just curious.)

Pusher and Eraser behave pretty similar in set traffic, though Eraser has the edge. I've played the above song with both to show the subtle differences.

Why have I lost the ability to mouse over a score and see details? Used to be able to do that. Am I using the wrong web browser? (I wanted to see the highest point cluster and so forth.)

Though also I'd like to point out, there is no way I can beat that Vegas score on Pro. I would love to see someone beat it, if anyone does try, please video it. The fact that the Vegas is pretty much double the Eraser/Pusher score is quite a gap.

Yeah, something still needs to be done about that. Either the multipliers should go similarly high for everyone, or Vegas should lose its chain when it shuffles.

It's more of a case that a cricket bat or a tennis racket wouldn't be good at golf, than the minor differences in gold clubs.

I don't think the difference between a driver and a putter is so minor. Regardless, it's not a perfect analogy, because you need both to complete a single hole, so it's not like we can look at golf scores for an entire round of 18 holes played with only a driver vs. with only a putter. (Disclosure: I don't actually play golf, so this is second-hand knowledge.)

They all have the same general appearance, handling and affordance. Where as bat/clubs/rackets from other sports don't. They all hit a ball essentially, like all characters collect blocks, but they require different skills. The best player at sports isn't found by sticking them all on the same field.

Perhaps. The problem with that analogy is that we can't objectively compare the skill of a cricket player to that of a tennis player, as they never compete directly with each other using their respective implements as part of the same game. But all analogies break down eventually, I guess.

I suck when it comes to knowing what I'm talking about with sports, so maybe the analogy to different characters in another video game works better. One's stronger and can bash enemies more easily, one's quicker and can jump higher, one's less vulnerable to damage, etc. Depending on what a level requires, they'll excel at different rates even for a player equally proficient with all of them.

In the roundabout jumbled stuff above I'm trying to say, skill in the individual character should come top.

I think an expert Pusher player is almost always going to beat an intermediate Eraser player, even in cases where the song is better suited to Eraser. Your scores for both came pretty close, especially for Pro. Presuming you're equally proficient with both (and how does one even measure this when Eraser is easier to learn?), I'd surmise you could come up with songs where you do better with Pusher.