Author Topic: Some sort of ID tag standardization or redirects  (Read 6493 times)

Mincus

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Re: Some sort of ID tag standardization or redirects
« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2010, 05:04:22 pm »
Yeah it is strange that a 500$ vidcard from a few years ago can't run this on max.

Not a deep comparison of the two waveforms, but just one with a +/- 5% difference margin. It shows the waveform of a played track in the scoreboard already, so  comparing that shouldn't  be hard.

You might get differences greater than that if you compare a compressed MP3 vs something lossless like FLAC.
I don't think so. maybe 2-3%, but not sure.

I have thought about this before (I think I mentioned it when I was new to the forums at some point), but there's a few problems with it.

Firstly, the only way I can see this vaguely working is to reduce the quality of the WAV significantly, down to 8-bit mono at ~20Khz. This would sound dreadful to the ear but might make a good comparison track.
However we still have three issues at this point: How do we get this data to the server? How exactly do we do the comparison and what do we do if there's 5 seconds of silence at the beginning of one of the tracks?

To elaborate: uploading or downloading even an 8-bit mono file for every song will mean heavy server costs (even compressed, it's going to add up very quickly), Dylan provides all the score server costs FOR FREE once you've bought the game. Expecting him to support this traffic is unreasonable (he could easily add adverts to the scoreboards now they're just HTML, I'm glad he hasn't thought I would understand if he did).
Assuming we get past the upload/download data issue, we then have to spend a significant amount of CPU power on comparing the tracks. Expecting this on the server is again unreasonable, doing it locally will almost certainly require a significant delay before playing the track (although this may only be needed once). There is a potential solution here using OpenCL/CUDA/etc, but none of these technologies are mature or multi-platform enough (OpenCL is barely out of beta with many bugs found every release, CUDA was nvidia only last time I looked), however at some future point this would be feasible as it would be possible to parallelise the comparison test.
Lastly, the comparison will be very, very hard to use with significant amounts of silence at the beginning of the track and difficult to verify with silences at the end. What if there's many blocks near the end and adding 10 seconds of silence allows a gravity drop that wouldn't otherwise be possible for instance. Would you still class the tracks as the same?

Long post, but I think it covers the logistic and programmatic issues inherent with the idea of using a WAV. I'm not saying it's not feasible, just that it needs some further thought.

Passerby

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Re: Some sort of ID tag standardization or redirects
« Reply #16 on: March 06, 2010, 07:51:44 pm »
Yeah it is strange that a 500$ vidcard from a few years ago can't run this on max.

Not a deep comparison of the two waveforms, but just one with a +/- 5% difference margin. It shows the waveform of a played track in the scoreboard already, so  comparing that shouldn't  be hard.

You might get differences greater than that if you compare a compressed MP3 vs something lossless like FLAC.
I don't think so. maybe 2-3%, but not sure.

no it is true my wav ad flac files have higher traffic and my 24bit 96khz wavs even beat the cd quality 16bit 44.1kaz ones. it can be a lot higher than 5% change or traffic increase.

and just think about it there is s huge difference between what a mp3 at 320kb/s and a flac or 16bit 44.1 wav files sound like and on extremely dynamic music there is a noticeable difference between a 16bit 44.1 wave and a 24bit 96khz wav. if it can be heard im sure the program will notice the difference.

but that can easily be fixed just have the game run the sound through a high and low pass filter then a heavy limiter to kill the frequency range and dynamic range before being analyzed. which would even the playing feild between lossy and lossless formats but that could also ruin the feel of the tracks too.

fixed your quotes, and I was referring to something I deleted from his post.  Just forgot to downsize it D :
« Last Edit: March 06, 2010, 08:19:29 pm by Laserrobotics »

DeathByNukes

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Re: Some sort of ID tag standardization or redirects
« Reply #17 on: March 14, 2010, 12:08:12 am »
Comparing the audio won't work -- either it'll be too fuzzy to be reliable or it'll be too much data and the server will go down. Mincus: Adverts aren't really an option for a paid game, and probably wouldn't generate enough revenue anyways.

Voting could work, but it would require moderation. The voters should be able to supply comments with their votes so they can explain why/why not. People who abuse the voting system would need to be banned.

+1 to doing something about it, I have this problem often with transliteration / artist name order.

murlough23

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Re: Some sort of ID tag standardization or redirects
« Reply #18 on: March 14, 2010, 01:44:42 am »
Voting could work, but it would require moderation. The voters should be able to supply comments with their votes so they can explain why/why not. People who abuse the voting system would need to be banned.

Those of us who really want this (me included) should probably be proactive about volunteering to help with the moderation. It's not a perfect solution, but I think it would improve the system a great deal without making the server do a lot of hard work to compare things that it wouldn't be able compare 100% accurately anyway.

Aquinox

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Re: Some sort of ID tag standardization or redirects
« Reply #19 on: March 26, 2010, 04:36:58 pm »
Moderation would be the best workaround for the time being, until unlimited server data is common..

Billy Buckets

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Re: Some sort of ID tag standardization or redirects
« Reply #20 on: June 16, 2010, 10:47:02 am »
What about something to ignore what ever comes after f., feat., or featuring? Some people put the guest artist in the artist tag, some put it in the title tag. ignoring featured artists could help alleviate the problem.

murlough23

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Re: Some sort of ID tag standardization or redirects
« Reply #21 on: June 16, 2010, 11:48:37 am »
What about something to ignore what ever comes after f., feat., or featuring? Some people put the guest artist in the artist tag, some put it in the title tag. ignoring featured artists could help alleviate the problem.

That'd be good as a stopgap, though I wonder if it will catch any false positive, like a title that is an acronym with "F." in it. I tend to put the featured artist in the title tag since it generally doesn't apply to the entire album, e.g. "R.E.M. - E-Bow the Letter (feat. Patti Smith)". I've actually gone and removed all of the "featured" artists from the tags in my iTunes library to ensure that I won't keep creating my own scoreboards.

Another possible false positive would be artists who do the same song as a duet/collaboration with different artists at different times. A live version of the song I mentioned above could show up as "R.E.M. - E-Bow the Letter (feat. Thom Yorke)" or other such variants.

Ideally it'd just use smart methods like this to determine that two different text strings might be the same song title, and it would prompt you before playing the song to ask whether your song was really equivalent to a song already on the scoreboard.

It might also help if it could read tags like "Album Artist" that some people set in iTunes or other apps.

blue_h3x

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Re: Some sort of ID tag standardization or redirects
« Reply #22 on: June 16, 2010, 01:55:27 pm »
Not necessarily set in itunes, any media library app or ripper will add album tags. Though sometimes songs are released as a single, album, best of (etc) and compendium. Which would further split the song into three boards, so album tags could just complicate things.
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murlough23

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Re: Some sort of ID tag standardization or redirects
« Reply #23 on: June 16, 2010, 01:57:44 pm »
Not necessarily set in itunes, any media library app or ripper will add album tags. Though sometimes songs are released as a single, album, best of (etc) and compendium. Which would further split the song into three boards, so album tags could just complicate things.

Yeah. This is why I think there's no true substitute for actual human beings confirming that two seemingly different songs are the same (or that two with the same title are different versions, for that matter). A machine making a reasonable guess is better than nothing, but ultimately the ability for players/moderators to split/merge song scoreboards would be ideal.

blue_h3x

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Re: Some sort of ID tag standardization or redirects
« Reply #24 on: June 16, 2010, 02:24:44 pm »
Exactly, redirecting mal-tagged songs to a set board would be better for all
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